Could you imagine the sheer determination it takes to mail yourself to freedom? That's precisely what Henry Box Brown did, and we've got the gripping details of his journey from Richmond to Philadelphia in a wooden crate—the dangers, the strategy, and the sheer will to survive. But Brown's story isn't just about a daring escape; it's also a window into a pivotal historical debate. We engage with the contrasting views of Brown and Frederick Douglass, unearthing the fraught dynamics between two African American icons who shared a common enemy but diverged on the path to liberation. Their conflict is a reminder of the diverse tactics in the struggle against the institution of slavery.
Hang around for a shift in gears as we bring you a slice of life from our very own Owen, a sandwich artist with a knack for storytelling. We're casting a net out to you, our global listeners, to weave your personal stories into our eclectic tapestry. And because history can have its lighter moments, we regale you with the humorous misadventures of some Indian tourists in Tokyo—a tale that proves local knowledge is key to avoiding unexpected detours. Join us for an episode that stitches together the profound with the playful, celebrating the resilience of the human spirit across time and culture.
Could you imagine the sheer determination it takes to mail yourself to freedom? That's precisely what Henry Box Brown did, and we've got the gripping details of his journey from Richmond to Philadelphia in a wooden crate—the dangers, the strategy, and the sheer will to survive. But Brown's story isn't just about a daring escape; it's also a window into a pivotal historical debate. We engage with the contrasting views of Brown and Frederick Douglass, unearthing the fraught dynamics between two African American icons who shared a common enemy but diverged on the path to liberation. Their conflict is a reminder of the diverse tactics in the struggle against the institution of slavery.
Hang around for a shift in gears as we bring you a slice of life from our very own Owen, a sandwich artist with a knack for storytelling. We're casting a net out to you, our global listeners, to weave your personal stories into our eclectic tapestry. And because history can have its lighter moments, we regale you with the humorous misadventures of some Indian tourists in Tokyo—a tale that proves local knowledge is key to avoiding unexpected detours. Join us for an episode that stitches together the profound with the playful, celebrating the resilience of the human spirit across time and culture.
This whole story, though my friend makes me, made me think of a guy who, if it was under any other circumstances, has an amazing nickname, I feel Okay, and his name is Henry Box Brown. Yes, yeah, you heard of Mr Brown.
Speaker 2:
Okay, so yeah for a suggestion, I believe.
Speaker 2:
Ah, he was something of the sorts. I've looked into a lot of his things and, yes, he did have quite the trick up his sleeve here and there. Here's what I'm going to start off with. It's a copy of a letter respecting Henry Box Brown.
Speaker 2:
Henry Box Brown escaped from slavery and it's a verification of Patrick Henry's speech in Virginia legislature March 1775 when he said give me liberty or give me death, and that's kind of what he references in that. So anyway, here is a man who has been the hero of one of the most extraordinary achievements I have ever heard of. He came to me on a Saturday morning last and a box tightly hooped, marked this side up by Overland Express from the city of Richmond. Did you ever hear of anything in all of your life to beat that? Everything that was done on the barricades of Paris exceeded this cool and deliberate intrepid to appreciate fully the boldness and risk of the achievement. You want to see the box in here, all the circumstances. The box is in the clear three feet one inch long, two feet six inches deep and two feet wide. It was a regular old store box such as you see in Pearl Street. It was grooved at the joints and braced at the ends. So it's a big, like you know, wooden crate. You know what I'm saying. He left himself the very slightest crevice to admit the air. Nothing saved him from suffocation but the pre use of water, a quantity of which he took in with him in a beast bladder, which I don't, so I'm assuming a fucking a cow's bladder. That's interesting, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:
So this goes on for a little while because it's pretty fucked up, because the guy like goes on and on to this whole adventure and I kind of want to touch on a little bit of it. So he actually got tipped over and then he had to shift himself back into position and when you think about this box, this guy's like five, eight dude, and about 200 pounds. So let's go back. I'm gonna go back up here and look at these dimensions. Okay, so the box is in clear three feet one inch long. This guy's five foot eight, two feet six inches deep and two feet wide. So he's like crouched down in a box, like you know what I mean. Imagine a fucking box and he's like crouched all up in there and shit, you know, and he's like going on steam ships and everything and doing all this, this, this crazy, this crazy shit.
Speaker 2:
Anyway, so you can better imagine that I describe my sensations when an answer to my rap on the box this is after the box was delivered at this gentleman's address the prompt response came All right, sir, the man weighs 200 pounds, is about five feet eight inches in height and, as you will see, a noble looking fellow. He will tell you the whole story, you know. So he like gets out and he shipped himself to an abolitionist in the north and succeeded. That was basically the gist of this story, but there's quite a bit more to this.
Speaker 2:
The thing that I thought was intriguing about him is, apparently this guy had a beef with Frederick Douglass, of sorts. Oh, wow, yeah. Well, at least he didn't care for him, because part of it was. Is that he well here? Let me just read you a Frederick Douglass excerpt here. Frederick Douglass, a well-known escaped slave activist and writer, criticized Brown for revealing the details of escape and his narrative of my bondage and my freedom. Frederick Douglass said had not Henry Box Brown attracted slaveholding attention to the manner of his escape, we might have had a thousand Box Browns per annum. So that's vintage beef, right, but I do kind of agree with him on that-ish.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's the thing is like I can't really decide either way, I see both perspectives on that. And again, if it hadn't just been if I don't know, man, people that were Christians mostly had just treated other human beings as such, then this wouldn't have been an issue Right as Jesus taught them to do so yeah, yeah, there's some pretty fucking but I don't even believe in.
Speaker 2:
Jebus. Yeah, there's actually a little fucked up narrative there that I read. That was within this Box Brown story and it's also like I actually read some of his book that he put out, and the one part of it is and I'm going to paraphrase it and it's not going to be exact to the thing, but basically there was this southern prayer kind of or story, whatever you want to call it, that told a story of so there's two black guys and two white guys and basically they're in this place and all the abundance of nature is so great and it's just so, whatever you know and they're so happy, and apparently in the story the black guys start getting on the white guys nerves and so they pray to God for a solution and within that solution, god drops two bags. One bag is like heavy and the other one is pretty light. Well, anyway, the black guy gets there first because he's faster and everything is what they say and picks up the one bag that's the heavy one and then the white guy picks up the other bag. The black guy's bag holds a hoe and like a shovel, and so he's destined to work, and then the white guy's holds a pen and a piece of paper. So he's destined to do stuff like that apparently. So that was like a big belief system they had. There's like I've never even heard of any shit like that until I read that in that Box Brown's book, you know, and that's an insane little like what not, or I don't know. But yeah, so you know Frederick Douglass is a little upset about it, but this guy was a lot more, he was educated.
Speaker 2:
And in his writings, in his writings also, he says that, like you know, some people have criticized him for escaping or why would he do that? Because he had it so good kind of deal. And his answer to that was he's like, well, you know, I didn't have it that bad, actually had a really good master, whatever, right, so and he said but he's like, although I was basically free with my body and I wasn't being mistreated, I was not free in my mind, and like he couldn't do anything like what he, he couldn't live his own life and all these other things. You know, I can't remember what he did, which is like a disservice, but nonetheless it makes sense to me, rings true, and like who the fuck is anybody else to like tell anybody that they can't like go do something right, you know, live their, live their life. You know and that's another thing that's pretty cool about pirates, guys very much so freedom fighters as well all about the free choice and live in your life. But here's what Mr Brown did as well, which is freaking amazing.
Speaker 2:
I thought so, after he was encouraged to document his story and all these things, he saved money to pursue a novel, which he did right, and then he also wanted to create a moving abolition panorama, which, if you don't know what that is, a moving panorama was very popular. It's kind of like what was there first before cinema, I guess, in a way. And so, anyway, a panoramic painting is a massive artwork that reveals a wide, all-encompassing view of a particular subject, often a landscape, military battle or a historical event. They became especially popular in the 19th century in Europe and in the United States. So what it was was they'd have these big panoramic paintings behind him talking and it would move through different paintings of acts of slavery, and he toured all over the place doing that, and he was extremely successful and basically spread the word of like you guys, to see this right in front of your fucking face, like this was changing minds. You know what I'm saying. He really put it forefront, I guess.
Speaker 2:
And then he faced a lot of danger. He was attacked in 1815 in Providence, rhode Island, while he was doing one of these shows. There's still a lot of things to go on. He connected it deeply with like the Nubian slave kind of idea and it comes from the—he tied it in with America's fascination at the time of Egypt and their slavery and such. So that was kind of how he was helping to sell this whole deal. So I don't know, there was a lot to that. But point being is this guy did a lot more and just ship himself in a box. Mr Frederick Douglas, I actually at this point feel like I may be on box brown side, that like I'm glad he went out there, Because yet again this is pretty Civil War guys. This is like guys who are out there trying to rally the troops to like go do things Right.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, civil War didn't start until, I believe, 1860. I know it ended in 1865.
Speaker 2:
I do know that A-1 Steak Sauce was created sometime before—.
Speaker 1:
During the Civil War.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think it was something else. Yeah, and I don't mean to downplay Frederick Douglas either, I just thought it was kind of like you know, vintage beef can be kind of funny.
Speaker 2:
Like why do they even got a hate on each other? They should be shaking hands. You know, there was that thing I read one time where, like because Frederick Douglas and Abraham Lincoln were well-known friends, right, and um, or something of the effect. I'm not going to claim I know a ton about this shit, but they ended up kind of beefing at one point in her too. So I think I have the word beef in my head because that he had to use the beef bladder for water. That could be a thing Nonetheless.
Speaker 2:
Hey, you know guys, nothing about this is funny. You know, it's not like it's different for us to do something that's like this. I mean we've done some pretty like disturbing shit. I feel Not like a ton because we're really not like that. You know We've done. But like the episode of lobster boy, you know. But even within that, you know there's attempts to sneak in humor and things like that. But it's pretty difficult on this and I don't want to, you know. I mean I do like his nickname Henry Box Brown. That's a hell of a name. Sounds like he could have been. You know, I don't know what he could have done otherwise what you know been a boxer. I don't know, you know, but nonetheless pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:
Sorry, just 61 is when the Civil War started. It did end in 65, but it was. It was brewing for a little while, but yeah, it was April of 61.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
You know I do remember some of the stuff I took. I always joke that I manage a, I'm going to own a head shop and what have you? Because I took English and history in college.
Speaker 2:
Right, yeah, exactly, I know it.
Speaker 1:
And it wasn't much work in history, right, but that was not.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I become a professor, no shit. Oh, one of the one of the things that Ellen and William Craft did as well, and I didn't. I don't have exact notes on this, but I read it multiple times, and this is to put this shit into perspective for everybody. Okay, they toured Africa as well, talking to Kings and talking to people around the other parts of the world trying to get them to end their part in the slavery. Oh, wow, yeah, so they're. You know, there's a thing here, guys is, and I also want to point, like I mean, I'm just putting this all in perspective for people that don't understand that this, the North Atlantic slave trade, was, was crazy, right, and in all that shit, but it's, it's not like I Don't know, there was, there's always this going on. There's this going on right now. It's just not the same people.
Speaker 1:
Right, right, well, and even just the. You know all the shit the English did. It's like they just started with and I have blood on both sides of it, like some of my people Started to enslave some of my other people are prevalent bloodline people to the north, like a more Scottish than at least I definitely, and then they did seem like it was that yeah, then they're like oh hey, we got these honkeys, like who knows what we'll find that we take their shit and then slave their people.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and then they sold them back delicious spices. Yeah, sold them, the part of my people which took them to the Arab world and then sold them and traded them for other people. And then they know, and this is in Africa and all that shit, you know it's Vikings and they came back and forth from Ireland actually and Scotland, both had kind of hubs and such, but then the Irish became slaves pretty hardcore for quite a while there. And then, yeah, and then previous to that, the Romans enslaved basically everybody but Scotland.
Speaker 1:
Right, they showed up in the pics. They were just like okay, we're building a wall, adrian's wall, yeah, adrian's wall. Yeah, like these guys are wack and dooly-doo, they just keep these nutcases.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, did you see that guys club? Did you know? Want to hear something? That Scotland fact? That's kind of crazy on this. This, this offshoot of our episode, is is that the Bagpipes? Right? They're not from Scotland, they were actually from England or from Egypt, from England, from Egypt, that's where bagpipes come from. Is Egypt.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, yeah, I didn't. I knew they weren't Scottish. There's an old Good friend, hopefully friend of the show at some point. I think I may reconnect with them Pretty soon. Devin, he was Irish completely area? No, probably not, but that's what they and I decided more with the Scottish, even though I do have some Irish.
Speaker 2:
Yeah blood.
Speaker 1:
And he said you know the old, the Irish gave the Scottish the the bagpipes and they still don't get the joke.
Speaker 2:
Oh, God, yeah, I get it, yeah, wow, well, okay, see, we had to talk about some other shit in order to fit in some humor. That's because we're dead serious about what. What we were just kind of speaking on. Hopefully, maybe it'll illuminate some, some of this for somebody who doesn't know shit about fuck, or maybe even somebody who doesn't know. Thank you, professor Cuz, like you should. Just, I'm not saying that like you should. Point being is that you should already be happy these guys escaped. You shouldn't be like there should be no viewpoint on this subject of like, well, maybe there's. You know, they shouldn't have broke the law by running away. You know, I don't know, fuck that. If you have that, yeah, if you have that perspective, please never listen to this show again. By all means, go eat a bag, yeah, so nonetheless, hey, man, I owe him yet again finding a fascinating one, and with good timing as well, I think.
Speaker 1:
Well, yeah, this is something I've wanted to do for a while, but then, as we were, sometimes we're scrambling with all the life things to get this done and Colt has to do all the work, as far as once we record it, he has to edit it into, you know.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, thanks, though.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for the acknowledging I'd have as good of a chance of building a spaceship in my garage, as I would doing all the work that Colt does on this. So it's hard for us sometimes to get things out, but the timing worked out on this.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:
Black History Month in February, although it should be, should be. This should be celebrated every day of the you know anyone? Again, this is stuff that I didn't learn about history in school, even college.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Oh, maybe I didn't take history in February.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, in February.
Speaker 1:
It's just like. Why is this not a widely known story? I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:
I don't know. I mean hopefully it is now, but just the Thanks to.
Speaker 1:
I tell stories, Just saying yeah, well, on the crafts, like they had something to do, oh yeah yeah, yeah, no, I mean like, but we're relayed, that's right, but we're taking all the credit.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, how honky of us. No, um, yeah, nonetheless.
Speaker 1:
Just an amazing. Amazing, like Just the human spirit to do that, to be able to accomplish all of that and then go on to help other people and encourage just decency, Like just treating that For human beings decently, something that seems like it should be a.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
Just an instinct, is not? I mean, it's still not. You go to the grocery store and people are yelling at the store clerk because they had to wait in line, and it's just like wait, you're bitching about this. If someone were to think about what the crafts went through just to get what should be basic human rights Right, like really yeah, like sorry, your satellite dish glitched out for 30 seconds. Yeah, speaking of these people endured horror and death.
Speaker 2:
No, I'm in agreement with you, my friend. I am 100% on your team with that. Um, no, no, if you want to check us out a little bit more, you can stop by pitlocksupplycom we have some shirts, we have, you know, just a lot of stuff going on or stop in Owen's shop at Cold Smoke in Billings, montana. So check him out, check out the man himself. Part time, I mean, sometimes there's another employee there, but you might just happen to catch yourself face full of Owen and you can say, hey, bro, tell me his story. He's got plenty of them. Yeah, we got. Hey, you know, might even make you a sandwich. Yeah, I might make you a sandwich. That's a real thing, guys. But I encourage you to walk in there and just be like you, owen, and then he says, yes, be like. Will you tell me your story? He'll know what's up. Now, I hope that happens to you, howard, with that, okay.
Speaker 1:
It'd be best if, hopefully, someone from Serbia, you know.
Speaker 2:
Oh yeah, yeah, serbia or Malta. Well which?
Speaker 1:
fun tale. I received a text message. I guess I don't see why this would be inappropriate or anything but next door to where we are, 1802, first stop in the North, in Billings. For years, and everyone I've met that's everyone who's been to Billings knows of Tokyo sauna. That was an Asian massage parlor. Well, my coworker, mike, sent me a picture just of a van pulling away and he said that a van full of people that were like from India, he thought from the accent and everything. But they're all of Indian descent. They all came in like asking about Tokyo sauna and he said they look quite embarrassed. When he informed them they were no longer around.
Speaker 1:
Oh man, and they all filed into the van and sped away, oh damn.
Speaker 2:
Is that reason? You didn't even tell me that.
Speaker 1:
The day this was a couple hours ago, he sent me a text message of the picture we could post it. Just a van. It doesn't show anyone and I'm not the morality police, I don't, but it just. They're obviously like disappointed and embarrassed. We're going to rent this van and go. No Asian massages. Oh you gentlemen, my friends, the nearer Far East.
Speaker 2:
Oh, it's just being descriptive people.
Speaker 1:
You know yeah. So then the last yeah, it was a bus full of Swedish people. It would have been fun, so I don't think it was just like you know what would they be like?
Speaker 2:
the stick of the Swedish massage is massages Anyway. Anyway, on that note, Not that kind.